The government has been told it should should think again about its plans to make it compulsory for landlords and self-employed businesses to keep digital records and report their income quarterly from April 2024.
The results of a recent Chartered Institute of Taxation / Association of Taxation Technicians survey of tax professionals about Making Tax Digital for Income Tax Self-Assessment - shortened by some to MTD for ITSA - highlight widespread concerns around the proposed launch of the new requirement in 16 months’ time, and recommend pausing the roll-out to allow time for further consultation.
The survey of tax professionals found that:
- 97 per cent of respondents do not think that MTD for ITSA, in its current form, can be successfully introduced from April 2024;
- 94 per cent are uncomfortable with the level of taxpayer awareness and a similar proportion are uncomfortable about taxpayers’ ability to comply;
- some 65 per cent are uncomfortable about the availability of suitable software and a mere three per cent are comfortable about HMRC’s capacity and resources to support taxpayers and agents.
On next steps for MTD for ITSA, the survey found that:
- 47 per cent of respondents think that MTD for ITSA should be paused, and consultation undertaken on its future;
- 31 per cent think that MTD for ITSA should continue, but on a voluntary basis; while
- 30 per cent suggest that MTD for ITSA should continue, but with a significant increase to the £10k minimum income threshold.
Alison Hobbs, chair of the digitalisation joint board of the Chartered Institute of Taxation and Association of Taxation Technicians, says: “These results confirm what we, and others, have felt for some time. The incredibly limited testing, combined with there being some key problems still to be resolved, means that HMRC must announce that the April 2024 start date is to be pushed back.
“While we remain supportive of digital tools which improve compliance and customer experience, the limited piloting of MTD for ITSA has yet to demonstrate that it will do either of these things. It is vital that these new processes are fully tested, and deliver the intended benefits, before they become mandatory.”
She continues: “While we support the objectives of MTD, we regret that the consultation around how to achieve them started too late in the process, after critical decisions had already been taken. As our survey demonstrates, it’s time to take a fresh look at how these objectives might be achieved.
“There are clearly elements of MTD for ITSA where HMRC and stakeholders are largely in agreement as to their benefits, and these might represent parts of the project which can be implemented first. For instance, most respondents see the benefits of keeping records digitally. Indeed, many of the difficulties we are seeing arise around the changes to reporting processes, and these are perhaps aspects which might reasonably be deferred until key issues such as the use of multiple agents can be resolved.”
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Not all landlords are businesses ,companies .there are some who just have one property they’ve had for years and only fill in a short tax return on paper ,are often elderly who don’t own a computer or have an accountant so what are they supposed to do?
That's. All these punitive retrospective changes are making more Landlords pack up, so the elderly one person who was doing a good job renting a house to someone in need packs up-One less house for the vulnerable.
I know a LL like this - but I also know he is not complying with all the other legislation currently! If you are unable to deal with the fairly straight forward idea of completing a tax return quarterly maybe its time to outsource it or give it up!
Is it as simple as that Tricia ? just as I used to do my VAT returns, my understanding is that every transaction will have to be recorded digitally that's where I'll find it difficult, I'm a pen and paper man
Andrew, as I understand it you need to have digital records. This means the income and outgoings are recorded using software or spreadsheets. If the records are kept on spreadsheets, they need to be transferred electronically to your accounting software to then be submitted. The tax man needs everything to be recorded digitally.
Andrew, you may be able to apply for an exemption:
Exemptions
In line with the exemptions for MTD for VAT, individuals should not have to follow the MTD for Income tax rules if any of the following apply:
It’s not reasonably practicable for them to use digital tools to keep their business records or submit quarterly returns due to age, disability, remoteness of location or any other reason (often referred to as ‘digital exclusion’).
They are subject to an insolvency procedure.
The business is run entirely by practising members of a religious society or order whose beliefs are incompatible with using electronic communications or keeping electronic records.
Where any of the above apply, the individual has to apply to HMRC to claim an exemption.
See Taxcalc - MTD for income tax
I think if it is introduced the taxation system should be greatly simplified - fixed allowances for everything so that landlords only have to submit and prove rental income.
How would that handle the occasional big things like replacing the roof, windows, kitchen etc. ?
I think the threshold should be much higher and exclude landlords as our expenses tend to be much chunkier.
I already find it galling that if a landlord has a single property with, say £3k profit (not gross rent), it will take 4 years to recoup the tax relief on a £12k spend and it can't be backdated to recoup from tax previously repaid.
I think the current system works fine and supported changing from the 10% wear and tear allowance to allowing tax relief on all replacements as this compensates those who update things and doesn't reward those who don't keep standards up.
More fixed allowances would revert to rewarding landlords who don't deserve it at the expense of those who spend more to maintain high standards.
There is something in what you say, Robert. However, personally I would prefer fixed allowances because I do quite a lot of work myself and can't claim any tax relief on that. I have painted and decorated, fixed leaks, damp, mould and locks etc, managed all the property, drafted contracts and notices - and currently do it without any tax relief.
Ellie
See my comments below about the £1000 tax free self employed allowance.
You're asked to do self assessment, so assess yourself in a reasonable but advantageous way and put an explanation in the notes so you can't be accused of trying to pull a fast one.
I also claim 45p per mile for everything associated with management or repairs. It mounts up.
That sounds absolutely logical Robert, but I don't think you can claim a penny for your own labour. You can claim for a new lock, but not for your labour in replacing the old lock for example, and you can claim for paint, but not for painting.
Ellie - I agree it is very frustrating how if we do stuff we can't claim anything for our labour but if we pay someone else to do it it's regarded as their earned income and a legitimate deductible expense for us.
Depending on how many properties you have it may be worth setting up a limited property management company. It adds to your accountancy fees but converts some of your income into earned income as opposed to investment income.
I set mine up because some of the joint owners of my properties were doing nothing and I got fed up with doing their share of the work with no payment.
Now the ltd management company does all the lettings, tenancy agreements, inspections and minor repairs and receives 15% of the rent for doing so. It's still me physically doing the work but in my role as managing agent rather than landlord. My husband and I each receive a director's salary (which is classed as earned income so gives us an NI credit, can be paid into a SIPP, looks good for mortgage applications, etc). We also get dividends, fully funded mobile phones, trivial benefits, a company Christmas do and a very tax efficient EV. Any money left over can be paid into pensions by the company.
Thank you very much for that information, Jo. The limited company idea sounds as though it is well worth considering. However, I am not sure how long I am going to carry on as a landlord; it depends on Government legislation to an extent.
Ellie
I don't go on what I think. I pass that decision on to the taxman by claiming the tax free £1000 and telling him why in the notes and it hasn't ever been queried. In any case I am charging my wife for my labour and she is charging me for her labour. We are legally separate individuals just as individually or jointly owned limited companies are legally separate entities and charging them for our labour is allowed.
I'm keeping doing this £1000 charge for as long as it's allowed. If I find I can't charge my wife then I will charge a daughter in law and she can charge me. If that gets banned I will do a deal with another landlord. If that doesn't work I will accuse HMRC of promoting modern slavery and when (inevitably) that doesn't work I will at least have had some fun with HMRC and some tax free income not repayable beyond 6 years!
I hope it all works out OK Robert. This is what it says on a website about an arrangement where a wife pays her husband to do the work on her rental property:
"Firstly, you must be able to show that you are doing work that, if it wasn't you who did it, your wife could be reasonably expected to hire and pay someone else to do. Secondly, you must be paid a reasonable amount for the work involved, not excessive. An amount she would pay a third party to do such work. Thirdly, the money should go from her business bank account to a bank account in your name. Fourthly, you will need to declare this income to the Revenue as your taxable earned income."
Ellie
Thanks for this. I'm pretty sure that I comply with all these requirements. Glad my logic is borne out.
I had another backup plan ready in that I would buy self assembly furniture or paint in a tin and sell my wife the added value product of fully delivered and assembled furniture and paint already applied to the wall.
In fact that might be classed as a capital gain with a £12k tax free limit instead of £1000 tax free self employed earnings?
PS. Wish I had been a tax avoidance lawyer!
I also do my own repairs, Monday it was fitting a replacement electric shower, today it was a new bathroom light , like you Ellie I can't claim for my own labour but I do claim for every last little thing right down to screws, I claim block amounts each year for motoring expenses, phone & internet, home office, work wear & cleaning and as Robert says it all adds up .
Hadn't thought about workwear.
Thanks Andrew!
I'm thinking of naming the properties Superdry or North Face Properties to comply with any branded workwear requirements. My wife didn't like Fatface Properties and Gieves & Hawkes or Savile Row sounds a bit pretentious?
You are much more skilled than I am Andrew, but I do what I can. It seems wrong that you can't claim for work which requires such expertise.
Andrew could charge his wife for her share of this work and she could charge him Greggs rates for his sandwiches and coffee?
You can bring a horse to the water but you can’t make him drink, it should be delayed give us a chance to die in peace.
The Government are probably being lobbied hard by online accounting software providers like Xero and Quickbooks because they want us to pay all those yummy monthly fees! What a massive increase in profit those companies will see.
From my research so far I’ve been unable to find a suitable alternative interface that’ll accept returns using a good old spreadsheet.
My accounts are “digital” already but just not in a format that interfaces directly with HMRC!
I do feel this is inappropriate for landlords. Maybe OK for limited companies but not ordinary people using spreadsheets. We aren't allowed to pay ourselves or get any NI credits either so it's all unfair.
HMRC will allow a reasonable % charge to yourself for full management, say 10 - 12% .... some push it as high as 15%. Set up a ltd co with you and your partner (if appropriate) as directors, charge yourselves the 10% or whatever you choose, and then pay yourselves a salary from that. Ideally the salaries and billings should be roughly equal - no need to pay corporation tax! Salaries should be between £6396 and £9880 pa so adjust your billings accordingly. This will give you full NI credits without actually paying any NI and are also allowable expenses before the nasty S24 calculation. Use a small local accountant - it shouldn't cost any more than £500 pa
Anyone can earn £1000 self employed earnings tax free so my wife and I claim £1000 each as management charges on our tax returns.
Not sure if it's exactly as the rules intended but we have been asked to assess ourselves and in my assessment this is a perfectly reasonable and logical course of action and would definitely be allowed if charged to a property company as a separate legal entity.
Self assessment works just fine and shouldn't be meddled with to sell unnecessary software.
As a Landlord and the ex-product manager at FreeAgent Accounting, I use FreeAgent for free through my NatWest bank account. They have launched MTD for Landlords via accountants and are working on a version for those of us who do their own accounts and tax returns. I am also a trained accountant and software developer so am able to cope whatever, but I am sure FreeAgents FREE service (via NatWest) will work beautifully with full accounting m bank integration and MTD submissions. I will keep you all posted.
The availability and price of software is the main problem. Also the ones I've looked at seem to assume more accountancy knowledge than I have. It's quite a big leap from using spreadsheets to using MTD compliant software. Either software isn't landlord specific so doesn't really make sense as property rental has very specific expense catagories and is treated completely differently to all other industries by HMRC. Section 24 and all that.
Or it is landlord specific but wants to do too much. I've been trying to use Landlord Vision software for about 6 months and have very mixed feelings about it. It's one of the very few systems that are both landlord specific and MTD ready. It can apparently cope with joint ownership in unequal shares which for my portfolio was important. The package is capable of doing a lot of different things but looks like it was developed as a management program for tenancies, safety certificates and repairs, etc that has had the MTD thing tacked on. I started using it in June and put in all figures from the beginning of April. It took many, many hours and a huge amount of swearing over about a 2 month period to get vaguely comfortable with the basics. I'm still finding duplications in the expenses. For some reason it's very easy to accidentally do things that cause the same transaction to be recorded 2 or 3 times. Sometimes it's my error, sometimes it's just how the LV system deals with repeating expenses on joint tenancies.
LV did a webinar a few days ago about MTD and apparently we only need to submit 3 figures on the quarterly submission and there will be bridging software to convert spreadsheets. Why didn't I know that earlier?
You sound as though you are doing brilliantly, Jo, but some older landlords won't be able to manage as you can.
Freeagent software is free if you have a NatWest bank account or its around £20pcm depending on version.
I am bias of course as I have contributed to the software development, however its built to be very easy to use for non accounts.
The landlord addition is not ready yet, only via accountants. But it is built on an accounting system not a landlord application, which I agree the ones I have tested are OTT and complicated.
Jo
I like the idea of software which mistakenly counts the same expense twice and would use it, provided it doesn't count the same income twice.
If this software links directly to the HMRC system, and is recommended or accredited by HMRC, then their due diligence will allow them to check things and ensure that the appropriate tax is collected.
I don't think the non IT literate taxpayer has a duty of care to check the accuracy of software that they are being obliged to use?
Peter - Freeagent says it's only for landlords with up to 5 properties and it's £12 per month. No mention of a free version for unincorporated landlords.
The limited company one is only free if you have a business account with NatWest.
So while it may well suit some smaller landlords it doesn't seem to be targeting medium size portfolios.
Peter, my friend I can’t do any of that stuff and it costs me over £5k incl’ the VAT just to have the returns submit even though all the paper work is done prior by me or it couldn’t be submitted.
Its now clear to me they don’t want landlords anymore just Digital Academics who can press buttons and pretend to be landlords just down loads the Apps’ and you’ll be grand.
They are not landlords at all what could they do with a property apart from nothing, just another layer of administration quangos who have muscled on in recent years making it their own.
£5K to submit a tax return, that is crazy. I would look to change your accountant.
I don't understand your comment about people who are able to cope with technology not being proper landlords.
A qualification to be responsible landlord is not computer illiteratracy.
I do all the donkey work and supply my accountant with the typed up figures which he checks and than submits both mine and my wife's tax returns to HMRC , £600 per year inc VAT.
The threshold for MTD should be inline with VAT, optional below that threshold.
Peter, you are right exactly my point you are singing from the same hem sheet as the Government driving out traditional landlords.
I’ll put it to you being Computer literate does not make you a responsible either.
I have read if as a landlord you are not Computer literate you won’t be allowed to be a landlord, check new HMO licensing rules some cheek.
So no requirement to know anything about being a landlord or capable of doing anything with a house to be a landlord, as long as your okay with the Digital aspects, down load the App’ and ask Mrs Google’s you’ll be grand.
Yes Peter my friend £5k is an outrageous amount but that’s the way its been, now getting much worse with Technology making us incapable of doing anything it called progress. not.
The so called professionals milking us, Solicitors charging £350. ph + VAT for the simplest of things but don’t ring them that’s £16. minimum + £6.pm extra minutes. The professionals are the problem.
I remember when I had nothing worthing for Febrrshash in Shepards Hill in Highgate for £17.00 pew week top line for 6 days, oh yes we got off at 4.00 o’clock on Saturday. Now I am expected to be a Digital Academic as well or can’t be a landlord but its ok to pay professionals hundreds of £’s an hour. Congratulations.
I agree to some level with you Michael, but unfortunately you cannot fight change.
Most new Landlord's, I would assume are Property Managers nowadays. Like many on this site I am hands on.
Neither is right and neither is wrong.
I can cope to a point with technology but choose to have an accountant and pay roughly £600pa. This was for a portfolio of 14 houses some 8 years ago and is the same price now that I will be down to seven., eight currently as still waiting for my latest sale to go through.
Interesting to read about setting up a Ltd company just to manage the properties, may have a chat with my accountant to get a better understanding of this.
Currently I pay my partner, who otherwise has nothing to do with the properties, to manage them and carry out the repairs. Admittedly it is taking her a long time to be trained to take on these repairs, but she still needs to be paid for her time.
I also agree that making tax digital is not right for us. On one side they say we are not a business , but when it suits, it would appear that we are.
On the upside Michael you must be doing well to need to pay a five grand sum for your accountant.
I use Taxcalc. This is a general self assessment software. Unless you have very complicated accounts it's very easy to use. It asks questions in the simplest way, not the same as the tax form. It skips sections that do not apply to you. You enter your rents, expenses, and interest and financial expenses and the software works out all the figures (you don't need to calculate the S24 bit) . It also remembers what you entered the previous year to make things easier. It then checks if there are any obvious mistakes and possible suggestions to pay less tax. Finally it then files on line.
I only have a few properties so works great for me. The cost is about £35.00 per year and allows upto 5 people to file their returns.
John
Will that work with the 4 times a year MTD requirements?
PS. Does it give the option to mistakenly charge the same expense twice like Jo's software above?
Robert, They are currently waiting for HMRC approval to be MTD compliant.
No it doesn't list the expenses twice. It's too simple for that. You just have one page to list all your expenses in the various categories, or if you have less then a certain amount (I think it's 10K) you just enter one figure. It allows you to list expenses for each property, or you can group the properties together, whichever way you want.
The software is geared up to make it as simple as possible to use.
Sorry about the typo’s this little HE phone likes to change things.
Anyway you are just talking about Accounts, what about all the other much bigger Administration and Compliance work bestowed on us at our own costs, to burden us into ground,
Do you want me the make a list.
So my accountants bill will go up for more pointless red tape
Great News :(
Andy my friend I don’t know about me do well but my Tenants certainly are having rents well below Market value.
What ever I have it no thanks to anyone else and not all got from PRS either. I have a construction background and well before Computers were invented. I was involved in every aspect building construction & Civil engineering. I was a Site foreman in command of a group of 54, but also entrusted to undertake all the setting out, pegs, profiles, levels, brass plates with reference to ordinance survey maps & datums. So don’t go putting Digital Academics in my class they wouldn’t hold a candle to me. What they have done is taken everything we had done and put it into digital format and hey presto they think they are geniuses and we are stupid.
They know everything and can do nothing, which is what wrong with the economy. Everyone wants the fee money (money for nothing) like Councils, government, regulators, so called professionals it’s endless none of them generating / earning new money.
So I can and have built a house or more without the need for help from anyone, whether it be excavation, drainage, concreting, brick work, first fix, roofing any span and without RSC, second fix, electric's, plumbing, plastering, kitchens, bathrooms , tiling, flooring, carpets, painting turn the key in the door and we are supposed to bow to digital academics who can’t do nothing about housing and gave10 years in further education to learn it, now we won’t be allowed to be landlords, give me break. Try starting them off on equivalent to £17. pw to pay for their digs live & save.
My first pay packet at 15 (1968) was £3.50 wk, but I could double that with overtime , can't remember how much a pint was (Robert will know) but a bag of chips were 6d, 2.5 pence in today's money
Michael, I understand and agree with 90% of the point you are making and most certainly the points on more legislation where they skim an extra layer from our wallet.
Reducing apprentices to 6 months and allowing these guys to work alone on someone's property is madness. Please bring back old style apprenticeships, though agree that it does not need to be as long as 3 years for some, 18 months maybe...but properly tutored not read!
We need more tradesmen and that's for sure, currently I do most things myself as often i'm not satisfied with what the builder has done. In fact i'm having a fence done today and the neighbour has phoned me to say that it is not right with the posts at different heights! I'm getting over an operation currently so unable to do that kind of work for a couple of months.
Everything is becoming computerised and it is not going to change. This has been accelerated by Covid as we had no contact with each other directly and as such had to use a computer. Banks will disappear even faster as a result from our high streets.
Things change and at an ever increasing pace, i'm glad that i'm coming towards the end of my working life though a ways to go yet!
First wage was £6.00 per week after food and lodgings taken out!
In 1966 my first (illegal) pint was under 2/- and my first legal pint in December 1967 was 2/4.
My first summer job in 1966 as a dustman in Butlins paid £6.06 for a full 6 day week, equating to 2/6 per hour. I went there on my Francis Barnet 150 cc motor bike which cost me £10 and was sold 3 years later for£12.
Yes a bag of chips was 6d but some places would give you a small one for 4d.
A pint was £0- 2s (10p) in Driscoll’s on the old Dock Road in Liverpool.
A pint was 2s -4d in the Great Northern in Boston Lincolnshire & 2s-6d in the
Railway Tavern, they moaned about the 2d, so they could have a gallon for a pound, but I didn’t drink 🍺.
I remember the same prices. It's interesting that fish and chips was 2/6, same as a pint. Nowadays fish and chips can be around £9, twice the cost of a pint - glad it's that way round!
So many people talk about transferring their letting properties to a limited Company but never go into details.
Are there penalties, costs, c/gains, stamp duty to pay on transfer.
So then it belongs to the Company can you ever get it back.
When naughty Council takes a whim and gives you a big fine your Company gets another/ double bubble.
Mario Mario, thank you but I am really looking for answers to my questions.
I guess what Michael is saying. If your company buys the properties, does your company have to pay stamp duty, legal costs etc.? And do you have to pay the c/gains?
John Young, l think so.
Maybe our learned friend, Peter might grace us with some answers, if he’s not too fed-up with us.
Sorry Peter.
Micheal
Methinks you are too polite (old school) ! Entitled snowflakes will show you how to be selfish! You are very lucky for the property appreciation you have got, which is as a result of the looting of the rest of Britain. I should dispose of some of it in the most tax effective way, whilst you are ahead. Start with your private residence, no CGT.
Mario, the Normans took control of Britain and then allowed people to have a hold on land, either free, or lease. Therefore, you transfer the title, leasehold or freehold.
Tricia, you are right perhaps its time to pack up and let the people who are able to fill a tax return take over.
What do they know about housing maybe the next time you want your car serviced don’t bother with the garage, get one of those guys.
Incidentally it doesn’t matter a hoot to me whether I am a landlord or not.
Come off it Michael, you don't fool me, without a project, a problem to solve , like me you would be bored rigid, we are the old boys that'll die happy working
Andrew. We are being treated with contempt and everyone’s mug, do we need it we know what they are doing getting rid of us for the Big g Boys to take over and they have deliberately made a total mess already.
The build 2 rent are not affordable up to double our rents and given priority and every advantage over us.
Michael, I've had no end of people take me for a mug over the years, ha, I've always had the last laugh though
John Lewis to build Initially 10’000. Flats on or over their Waitrose Super markets, in West Ealing, Bromley & Reading with a view to expanding to 50’000, Flats & have secured £500’000’000, from the City.
New comer EQT & Sigma
Capital group have secured £285’000’000.
Lloyds Bank, owner of Halifax & Bank of Scotland, to convert Banks have a £1 b. fund. Barclay have a £1b fund for new homes and former Banks conversion.
Avivia, moving out 900 Office staff to convert Office to Flats.
M&S to build 10 Storey block on their Hammering Shop.
Legal & General have a £2b, housing fund the call it levelling up, just a sample and none of them were involved in Residential letting before, they were recently build to sell with favourable Schemes to rope in first time buyers. However if they can’t sell they will corner the rental market.
So you still think all this is nothing to do with crucifying Private Landlords by full scale attack by several means, how does any of this help the homeless or make housing affordable.
Edwin my friend I can’t see how selling my house tax free would help as I wouldn’t spend it anyway or what would I spend it on, you can’t give it away and ultimately it will be taxed anyhow.
Maybe put some property in a trust for family members but c/gains taxed payable on way-in, so it’s out of your Estate you think, you can have no more to do with it or receive any income from it. However if you die with-in 3 years that tax is washed away and lost and the whole thing comes back into your Estate for Inheritance tax purposes @ 40% so that was a waste of time plus someone will have to be paid to manage the trust.
Giving your property away and live 7 years is bad joke, just watch them making a mess and you have to live full 7 or not much good.
There is no difference between money & property in your Estate for Inheritance tax purposes so the money you got for your house is taxed the same where is the gain. I am sure someone will correct me.
Do know why rich people want more & more no one can tell the bones of the man why wore the ragged jacket.
I agree that MTD for ITSA should continue, but with a significant increase to the £10k minimum income threshold.
I propose increasing the MTD for ITSA to £85k pa - similar to VAT threshold.
Also that HMRC should provide a FREE universal digital reporting system as the default MTD system that will be available for all to use.
Jackie, that probably suits you with your Digital Administrative background.
We are landlords that are not ofay with any of this crap although I was registered for VAT for 20 years at done the quarterly returns by pen myself before Computers.
I hope they don’t bring it in and if they do make it a fiver.
To Truss Urquhart: It's not a matter of caperbility to deal with drastic and unnrcessary changes but the retrospective altering of the goal posts those who have invested for theur retirement. The extra work load and computer skills were not anticipated. As with the reduction of mortgage tax releif and the abolishment of automatic depreciation allowance, such changed should only apply to new entrant Landlords or any expansion of one's portfolio.. 'Old fogey' landlords will die out and allow the goverment its
desired future world of only large 'professional' company landlords..
Peter, there’s a lot in what you say they keep changing the rules after the event, how can you have a business plan when that happens. Also what happened to Grandfather Clause.
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